Escape
from polygamy
With 'Deborah Norville
May 25, 2004
The transcript to show On FLDS and Polygamy-- May 26, 2004
Appearing : Laurene Jessop, Flora Jessop, Ross
Chatwin, Flora Jessop, Eddie Farnsworth, Mark Shurtleff
This woman was once a hostage of marriage, held
captive, she says, by her polygamous husband. And when she tried to break
free, she was thrown into a mental hospital.
Tonight in her first television interview, Laurene
Jessop recounts her dramatic escape from a notorious sect in Arizona and her
relentless fight to regain custody of her children.
We‘ll also meet the woman who helped Laurene on the
outside. Now this ex-polygamist is on a mission to make sure other women
and children don‘t suffer the same fate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This type of lifestyle is
geared toward the ownership of women and children.
NORVILLE: Tonight, polygamy in America.
Just how widespread is it, and why is the law often powerless to stop it?
The facts may shock you.
Guests: Laurene Jessop, Flora Jessop, Ross Chatwin,
Flora Jessop, Eddie Farnsworth, Mark Shurtleff
(VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH NORVILLE, HOST: Escape from polygamy.
This woman was once a hostage of marriage, held captive, she says, by her
polygamous husband. And when she tried to break free, she was thrown into
a mental hospital.
Tonight in her first television interview, Laurene
Jessop recounts her dramatic escape from a notorious sect in Arizona and her
relentless fight to regain custody of her children.
We‘ll also meet the woman who helped Laurene on the
outside. Now this ex-polygamist is on a mission to make sure other women
and children don‘t suffer the same fate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This type of lifestyle is
geared toward the ownership of women and children.
NORVILLE: Tonight, polygamy in America.
Just how widespread is it, and why is the law often powerless to stop it?
The facts may shock you.
ANNOUNCER: From Studio 3-K in Rockefeller Center,
Deborah Norville.
NORVILLE: And good evening. Tonight we begin with
the story of one women, a story that she has never told before until now.
She lived in a community in Arizona, a polygamist
community in which she was born and stayed for just about all of her life until
she escaped. We‘ll meet this woman in just a moment.
But first, here‘s what you need to know.
It‘s been more than 100 years since polygamy was
outlawed by the Mormon Church. But tens of thousands of people still
practice it openly here in the United Stats.
And there are more polygamists living in the twin
cities of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hilldale, Utah, than anywhere else in
America. They are members of the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints, which broke away from the main church decades ago.
Most of the men there have several wives and sometimes
dozens of children.
The sect is led by Warren Jeffs, a reclusive,
self-proclaimed prophet who‘s believed to have had at least 50 lives. He
pretty much controls the two towns from behind the eight-foot walls of his
family compound.
It is a fiercely closed society, a society where
outsiders are shunned. But since January, allegations of child abuse and
sexual assault have come to light as some members of the community have fled.
Joining me now in an exclusive interview is Laurene
Jessop, who has escaped her polygamist marriage in Colorado City a few years
ago, and she‘s hoping to gain custody of all of her five children.
Good evening. It‘s so nice to meet you.
LAURENE JESSOP, WHO ESCAPED POLYGAMIST MARRIAGE:
Hi.
NORVILLE: Tell me a little bit about your life.
You grew up in Colorado City, and at 19 you were married off to your brother
in-law.
JESSOP: To Val Jessop.
NORVILLE: Who was already married to your sister?
JESSOP: My half sister, yes.
NORVILLE: Tell me about that. Did you get
to choose him? Did you guys have a regular, you know, courtship where he
called on you and you dated? What is it like?
JESSOP: Well, I knew him a little bit, because he
was married to my sister. But I was assigned to him and then married him.
They had been married five years.
NORVILLE: And when you say you were assigned to
him, what does that mean? How does that work?
JESSOP: Well, the prophet told me I belong to him
and so we were married, you know, during the day—the day of the assignment.
NORVILLE: The same day that the prophet who was
the leader of the church group there told you you were marrying this man.
JESSOP: Right.
NORVILLE: By the end of the day, you guys were
married.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: Were you happy about that?
JESSOP: We—that‘s the way we were taught.
We just—you know, that‘s the way it was. That‘s the way we believed,
what we did. And so I married him. And you know, our honeymoon was,
we went home and did dishes at our house.
NORVILLE: That was the honeymoon?
Don‘t tell me that was the high point of the whole
marriage, dishes on your wedding night.
Tell me a little bit about the upbringing in Colorado
City, how kids were taught, what your general belief system is, because that
really does seem to shape everything about community life.
JESSOP: Well, I was born in and raised in the
same principal of celestial marriage. My dad had four wives. My
mother had 17 children. And my dad had 54 children. And I was the
oldest girl of my mother‘s. So...
NORVILLE: So within your home, conceivably, 54
kids were being raised? Because all four wives and your dad would be
living in the same house together.
JESSOP: Well, there were two homes at that time.
Most people live together now, but there were two homes.
NORVILLE: And the principal of celestial
marriage, which is so important to what the fundamentalist Latter Day Saints
believe, is the—in order to get to heaven to the eternal life, a man must
populate the earth. And the easiest way to do that, the church subscribed
way to do so, is to take many wives?
JESSOP: Three or more wives will get a man to the
celestial kingdom.
NORVILLE: Three or more wives?
JESSOP: The highest degree of glory. They
want to get there.
NORVILLE: And how does it work for a woman?
What does a woman do in order to achieve the highest calling of God in the
future world?
JESSOP: Mostly be submissive and obedient to
whatever her husband tells her to do.
NORVILLE: And what kinds of things would that be?
I mean, do you have—do you have a say in how the children are raised, a say in
how the house is decorated? How much control, how much leeway do you as
the wife in a marriage have?
JESSOP: Not really much. It sort of depends
on the man, too, because like in my situation, the first wife basically made all
the decisions in the home.
NORVILLE: So what was your role?
JESSOP: Well, I was required to follow what she
wanted done. And so when I was institutionalized, that was the
requirements I had to do to go back, was go back and do the list of things that
she had written for me to do.
NORVILLE: And when you say you were
institutionalized, you rebelled against some of the things that your husband
and—you call her your sister wife.
JESSOP: My sister wife, yes.
NORVILLE: Your sister wife wanted you to do.
And you ended up in a mental hospital.
JESSOP: I ended up in a mental hospital four
different times, and, like, the fourth time I just said, you know, I can‘t do
this any more. I‘m not going back to her, because the more—every time
I went back it was harder, because she required more of me each time.
NORVILLE: What were the requirements?
JESSOP: Well, that I submit to her and that I pay
her money and go and apologize to her, tell her I‘m sorry for our family‘s
problems, that basically they are all my fault.
And so when I went back and told her that then she said
well, good, because I‘m sick of your, you know...
NORVILLE: Did she use a bad word?
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: OK.
JESSOP: And so...
NORVILLE: Which is not part of the teachings,
I‘m guessing.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: OK.
JESSOP: And so basically it all fell back on me
again as the problem of the family. And my dad, my uncle, actually who is
my dad now—my mother married him, felt like I didn‘t belong there in the
first place with Val, and so I had no place to go.
So it was like OK, I‘m not supposed to be here but I
was told to be here. What confusion, you know? Where am I supposed
to go now? What am I supposed to do?
NORVILLE: And yet, you also have five children.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: That I‘m sure as any mother you are
trying to protect and take care of.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: And—And how are your kids being
treated during this period of you‘re back and forth into these institutions
and obviously the belittling from the other two adults in the household?
JESSOP: A very—In a very abusive situation.
Marie was abusive to them, physically, psychologically. She was pretty
much allowed to continue that.
And so after I left there, they were told not to tell
me anything that was going on for two years. And the children didn‘t
dare talk...
NORVILLE: How did you get out?
JESSOP: Well, I was in the institution and I said
I‘m not going back there. I picked up a newspaper, found me a job and
said I‘m going in a live-in situation to take care of my—take care of a
lady, an elderly lady. And I didn‘t get anything.
NORVILLE: What do you mean?
JESSOP: I didn‘t get any of my things from
Colorado City.
NORVILLE: So you literally left with the clothes
on your back?
JESSOP: With the clothes on my back.
NORVILLE: Thinking that you might never see your
children again?
JESSOP: Right. And that‘s the reason why
I have, you know, done what they wanted me to as long as I have, because the
children were involved. I wanted my children to, you know, have some sort
of stability. I don‘t want them to see us fighting all the time.
NORVILLE: It must—I can‘t imagine, as a
mother, how excruciating your situation must have been for you to leave your
children behind, thinking this is the only way I can save myself.
JESSOP: Well, at least I got see my children.
I have a sister who hasn‘t seen her children for four years. And the
same thing happened to her about the same time.
NORVILLE: And your sister also left.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: Help me understand a little bit about
the requirements. You talked about the garments when we were speaking
before the program began.
You were told you had to follow a certain set of rules,
and I gather these are rules that all women within this group are asked to
follow.
JESSOP: Yes, the dress code is very important.
NORVILLE: Which is?
JESSOP: They wear a dress. They wear
garments and, you know, their hairstyles are, you don‘t cut your hair, you
know, you don‘t wear makeup.
NORVILLE: And when you say the garments, we‘re
not talking about—we saw the family photo a moment ago of a dress necessarily
with a high neck. There are certain undergarments that you are required to
wear.
JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: What are those?
JESSOP: Underneath the dress is a long sleeves,
ankles and wrists.
Ankles and wrists.
NORVILLE: Like long johns?
JESSOP: Yes. Long johns.
NORVILLE: And the purpose of that is what?
JESSOP: To prepare for temple, temple ordinances,
but there‘s no temple. It‘s like the laws of God are higher than the
temple. They don‘t need the temple at this time.
NORVILLE: The temple being the human being body?
JESSOP: No, no, no.
NORVILLE: Like your body is a temple or the
actual temple?
JESSOP: The temple, the church temple. Like
the church.
NORVILLE: OK. OK.
How did you get your kids back? I know you know
have custody, you have been reunited with three of your kids, quite recently.
JESSOP: Yes, and I miss my boys. I want to
see them, too, but I have my three girls. And they are—well, it‘s a
long story.
NORVILLE: Well, we got an hour.
JESSOP: OK. Well, he left them with me,
actually, and he found out that I was starting to break some of the rules of
what the requirements are, the dress code, you know, just having a boyfriend,
for instance.
They believed—he believed that I should stay single,
stay alone for the rest of my life so that in the next life, than I could have
some kind of exaltation and belong to a man there and be assigned basically.
I think that it was him that I was supposed to be assigned to.
NORVILLE: In the afterlife as well.
JESSOP: Yes. But you know, he lived with a
wife for five years. I lived alone, and that was fine for him.
NORVILLE: And you got your children back, how?
He left them with you and you started state proceedings to get legal custody?
JESSOP: Right, and then he wanted them back and
we are on the run.
We‘ve been running for a month now.
NORVILLE: So if—if your husband knew where you
and your daughters are, what would happen?
JESSOP: He would—He would try to take them.
He already tried twice to have me handcuffed and institutionalized twice in the
last month.
And, you know, this being America, there‘s not much
help for us women coming out of there. Because he got custody of my
children when I was in the mental institution, and he had those papers and, you
know.
NORVILLE: Well, there is one woman I know who was
quite helpful to you during your time trying to leaving the sect and also trying
to get your kids back.
We‘re going to take a short break with Laurene
Jessop.
When we come back, we‘re going to meet another woman
whose story is quite similar. She, too, escaped her own polygamist
marriage. Now, she‘s made it her life‘s work to help others in the
same situation.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, exposing the secretive
lives of polygamists.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They‘re looking to
establish somewhere where they‘re not known.
ANNOUNCER: Flora Jessop‘s crusade to help other
women and children escape that life, when DEBORAH NORVILLE TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NORVILLE: We‘re talking tonight about polygamy
in America, and joining our discussion is Flora Jessop. She has no
relation to our first guest, Laurene Jessop.
Flora, too, escaped from a forced marriage, a marriage
to her cousin when she was 16 years old. Since then, she‘s become a
child abuse advocate. She‘s been helping other victims of polygamy.
And it‘s nice to have you on the program.
FLORA JESSOP, ESCAPE FROM POLYGAMOUS MARRIAGE:
Thank you for having us.
Hearing her story, did it sound like your own life
story being played back to you?
F. JESSOP: It sounds like a thousand girls that I
know, plus mine.
NORVILLE: Plus your own story.
How is it that women remain in this environment if they
are as unhappy as, obviously, Laurene was in her marriage? Why don‘t
they just leave?
F. JESSOP: Well, if they‘re born and raised in
this and it‘s all they know. They are not allowed books, newspapers,
television, music, anything. Any influence from the outside world is
forbidden.
NORVILLE: And so they would have no knowledge
of...
F. JESSOP: They don‘t.
NORVILLE: ... of how to even escape?
F. JESSOP: Right. And any time a woman has
tried to escape, the law enforcement authorities have given them directly back
over to the prophet.
NORVILLE: This is some footage that was taken of
the community of Colorado City, and it‘s obviously way out in the boondocks.
It‘s not close to any city.
F. JESSOP: No.
NORVILLE: In fact, let‘s throw up a map just to
give you a sense. It‘s right there on the border with Utah and Las Vegas
is the closest city, and it‘s more than 300 miles away.
So if you were to walk out the gates of the community,
where would you go?
F. JESSOP: You would be very lucky to make it to
a community that you could get help from. And usually if you do, the law
enforcement is so tied in with the law enforcement inside of Colorado City that
you just get taken straight back home. And then—and then your life
really becomes a living nightmare.
NORVILLE: And Laurene, what have you heard
happens to women who have tried to get out and then go back?
L. JESSOP: Well...
NORVILLE: That was your own situation?
L. JESSOP: I did go back, you know, after I was
institutionalized for four times. And once you get that name, it‘s hell
for you from there on out.
NORVILLE: What do they do to you?
L. JESSOP: Well, pretty much keep you isolated, tell
you you‘re crazy.
And that‘s the main abuse is just that you‘re
insane and they make you believe you are.
NORVILLE: And the other people in the community
keep you at more than arm‘s length. They don‘t associate with you,
freeze you out?
L. JESSOP: When I went back a year and a half
ago, tried to make another go of it, my dad told me, “Nobody wants to see
you.”
He had one of my mother have a lock and key to my room.
He put cameras in my room and watched everything I did. He tried to take
my children away; he tried to take my car away.
And my ex-husband is the one that stepped in and said
you‘re not doing that. She‘s still going to see the children.
So, you know, he‘s not all bad.
NORVILLE: So he did come to your defense in a
crunch?
L. JESSOP: Yes, but he was excommunicated shortly
after that/
NORVILLE: Because of his defense of you?
L. JESSOP: Well, I believe it is.
NORVILLE: And you still have two sons, a
12-year-old and a 13-year-old.
L. JESSOP: Right.
NORVILLE: They‘re in Colorado City. What
is their life like? What are they being taught?
L. JESSOP: Well, they are basically with Marie,
my sister wife, their
·
their other mother. And she‘s been very abusive to them. They do
attend priesthood classes.
NORVILLE: Abusive how?
L. JESSOP: Physically, telling them they‘re not
going to grow up being like their mother, psychological abuse that way.
NORVILLE: Does she hit them?
L. JESSOP: Yes. She‘s been—Pulled their
hair back and stuffed pills down their throat. Things like that.
My girls are thrilled to be out. They cheered.
NORVILLE: Really? What did they say?
L. JESSOP: They cheered when they didn‘t have
to go back to Mother Marie. So...
NORVILLE: Flora, you have made it your life‘s
work since you left when you were 16 years old to be there for other women and
children and, I guess, young men who might want to leave the community.
F. JESSOP: Yes.
NORVILLE: How do they get this touch with you if
there‘s such a controlling environment, as Laurene says?
F. JESSOP: Word of mouth. I—My entire
family still resides in the community. I am related to almost everyone
there. So...
NORVILLE: Is their life worse because you‘ve
been so public about your experience since you have left?
F. JESSOP: Well, I‘ve been given messages that
my mother is paying the price for everything I do. What—my realization
is, though, is that she‘s paying the price, whether I do anything or not.
NORVILLE: Paying the price in that she still
lives there and she‘s still a part of this society?
F. JESSOP: In that she is still being abused in
this society. She has no civil or human rights, absolutely none.
These—The women who come out of here, they don‘t
know how to make any decisions, basic decisions, basic decisions that we learned
at birth. They do not know how to even help themselves.
And if you come out of there with a third grade
education and several children, how do you support your kids? You‘re
trapped.
NORVILLE: It‘s easy for someone on the outside
to hear this story and stand in judgment and say, this is nuts.
But the reality is, this is part of a religious belief
system that I‘m sure a lot of people within the community subscribe to.
F. JESSOP: This is not a religion. This is
terrorism. We don‘t need to go across seas to find terrorists, we are
growing our own in the United States.
They are now—part of the private schools that they
have the children in. They started these schools four years ago.
Part of the teachings with the boys are that when they are called upon by God to
go and wipe the gentiles and the wicked off the earth which is...
NORVILLE: Which is anybody who doesn‘t believe.
F. JESSOP: ... anybody who doesn‘t believe,
then if they pray when they kill people, then they won‘t become bloodthirsty
and therefore won‘t be possessed by devil while they‘re doing the killing.
The girls are being made to slaughter animals, because
it‘s going to be the duty of the mothers to take care of their children when
the men are all off fighting this war.
They‘re teaching survivalist tactics.
NORVILLE: How do you know this to be true?
How can you tell this?
F. JESSOP: We have the doctrine that they‘re
teaching. Warren Jeffs is teaching the fifth to eight grade students.
NORVILLE: This is from—This is from the school?
F. JESSOP: Yes. They also are very white
supremacist.
NORVILLE: “Each prophet stands as God to the
people, when he speaks it is the Lord speaking.”
And now he‘s, I guess, referring to the court case,
“in the Nexavus (ph) court case where the outer (ph) states have tried to
destroy the united effort plan. President Jeffs called on his people to
fast and pray. We were so completely defeated at that certain court
hearing.”
This is the court hearing with the gentleman we‘re
going to be speaking to in the next segment, I think.
F. JESSOP: I believe it was within of those.
This is one of the more frightening ones.
NORVILLE: I am reading from text which is for the
fifth to eighth grade students, according to Laurene Jessop.
“The devil needed a family on earth to use, just like
the Lord needed the family of Israel or Abraham.”
The next line is extremely racist, and I would prefer
not to say it.
It‘s clearly very, very...
F. JESSOP: It‘s very frightening in today‘s
day and age that they‘re teaching these children this.
When I came out of there 17 years ago, we were actually
taught that if we associated with a person that was not purely white, we
would—their sins would rub off on us. And we would turn colors, as well.
And I got stuck—I was 16 years old and I was stuck in
a grocery store line. And I was almost hysterical when I got out of the
store, because I just knew I was going to be a different color when I got out.
And it‘s—that is very, very psychologically...
NORVILLE: Is it brainwashing?
F. JESSOP: Absolutely. Yes.
Absolutely.
NORVILLE: We‘re going to take a short break.
We‘ll be back more with Flora Jessop and Laurene Jessop, talking about their
experiences within this group in the Utah-Colorado border—Utah-Arizona border.
And in a moment, we‘ll be joined by a man who took on
the clan and was kicked out, told to turn over his property, which includes his
wife and children. His story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
NORVILLE: We‘re talking about polygamy in the
United States.
In January, Warren Jeffs, the self-proclaimed prophet
and leader of a polygamist enclave along the Arizona-Utah border excommunicated
21 men from the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
We wanted to talk with Warren Jeffs, but through his
attorney he did not respond to our request for an interview.
Jeffs evicted the men from the town of Colorado City,
Arizona, and ordered them to turn over their property, which includes their
wives and children, to the church. But one man refused.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
But I don‘t plan on moving. I‘ll have to be
forced out if I‘m going to be taken out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NORVILLE: Joining me now is the man who refused
to turn over his family and home and took on court, Ross Chatwin.
He went to court and last week won the right to keep
his house.
Mr. Chatwin, good to see you.
ROSS CHATWIN, OUSTED FROM POLYGAMIST SECT: Thank
you. Good to see you, too, Deborah.
NORVILLE: I gather that the lawsuit was a tricky
one, because in actuality, your house and most members‘ houses are owned by
the church through a trust and you are there as a tenant and will.
CHATWIN: Yes, correct. The property is
owned by the trust, by the UAP Trust. And we‘re expected to make
improvements on the ground and then they suppose that that all belongs to them.
But I objected.
NORVILLE: And you went to court, and your
argument was that you should be repaid for the money you put into fixing up your
house?
CHATWIN: Yes. I figured that, if they want
us to move, they will have to buy us out. That way, I can start over
somewhere else. Otherwise, there is no way I can.
NORVILLE: And the court ruled in your favor, so
how much money do you anticipate, assuming there is not a successful appeal?
How much money do you think you‘ll get from the church?
CHATWIN: Oh, I doubt I will get anything. I
think what I will probably end up getting is a life estate.
NORVILLE: Which means?
CHATWIN: They have never paid anybody.
NORVILLE: And what‘s a life estate mean?
CHATWIN: OK, life estate means that I will get to
stay here for all of my life and we‘d like that to also include my wife‘s
life, in case that I live longer than she does.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: Now, you are a member of this group,
but you were excommunicated, which means what? Are you still technically
allowed to attend services and participate in community life, or are shunted
from all of that?
CHATWIN: Yes, I‘m shunned from all of that,
but, then, so is everybody else. They don‘t have services here anymore.
And it‘s been almost exactly a year since they have.
NORVILLE: So how does the religion go about
practicing its faith if they‘re not having organized services?
CHATWIN: They expect every family to have Sunday
school at home and they just basically play prerecorded messages that Warren
gives out. And that continues the brainwashing process that is necessary
to keep Warren in power. And it‘s working very well.
NORVILLE: We have been hearing about what it‘s
like to be a member of this community from the perspective of two women who have
been a part of it. What is attractive to a man to be a part of this
community? Why is this a lifestyle and a religious following that worked
for you for a good part of your life and continues to do so for many men?
What‘s the attraction?
CHATWIN: I was taught that it was very dependent
upon that for my salvation and exultation. And it is a beautiful life, or
it can be. But if somebody is forced into it, it cannot be at all.
That‘s very the opposite.
NORVILLE: How many wives have you got?
CHATWIN: I‘ve only got one wife, one wife and
six children. But I‘m certainly not opposed to the idea of having
another wife if it was the right thing and all parties involved felt really good
about it. Otherwise, it will never happen.
NORVILLE: Well, wasn‘t part of the problem when
you were excommunicated that you were going around the system rather than going
through the prophet to select a new wife? You were dealing directly with a
young lady and you and your wife were talking about her joining your family as a
wife?
CHATWIN: We were talking about it and discussing
it, but we were never to the idea here of going out and looking for it. We
did not go find her.
She came and found us and asked us if she could be part
of our family. She said that we had a happy family and how could she have
a happy family like we do. And that‘s when she invited and my wife and
her got together here and decided that would be a good thing. And so she
tried to pursue it and then she was slammed for it.
NORVILLE: And where is this young lady now?
CHATWIN: I don‘t even know anymore.
I know that she is over 18 years old now. And I
don‘t really know where she is at. I haven‘t seen her for probably a
month and a half or more. I don‘t keep track of her anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: When the excommunications happened in
your church, the church said it wanted all of your property, which included your
wife and your children. Do you regard your wife and your six children as
your property?
CHATWIN: Oh, absolutely not. I do not.
I consider that—or regard it as a bond between a man and a woman here and she
is not property and not a rug to be walked on.
But she is a part of me. And in the event that I
make her feel like she that she is not part of me, like I don‘t have the
respect for her, then she could leave at any moment.
NORVILLE: Mr. Chatwin, help me understand how
people in your community support themselves. Do you have a job outside the
home? I gather that the communities there have been on the receiving end
of something like on the north side of the $8 million in federal funds, welfare
payments, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid. How do you support your family,
your six kids?
CHATWIN: How it has been is that we did have
business ventures that we were doing and doing fairly well in it. We were
making it work.
But then when Warren came into play there and told us
to get out there and he also ordered that all the people in this community
boycott us. And so I haven‘t had a job ever since January or anything
that I—or even November—as early back as November. And now I am just
getting ready to get a contractor‘s license to go start building homes in
Saint George, so I can provide for my wife and family.
NORVILLE: So how are you doing it? Your
family on welfare right now or food stamps? Or how do you make ends meet?
CHATWIN: Right now, we are on welfare. It
was the worst thing in the world for me to go do it. I hated to go do it
and I resented every minute of it. But it was almost like I had no other
choice. So I decided to swallow my pride and go ahead and get on it.
But I don‘t plan on being on it for very long.
NORVILLE: Flora Jessop, is that not a common way
of many families being supported in this community, through federal or state
assistance?
FLORA JESSOP, CHILD ABUSE ADVOCATE: Yes.
Actually, the wives are ordered to go on welfare in most of the families.
NORVILLE: And collect payments based on the
number of kids that they have?
JESSOP: And they collect as single mothers.
NORVILLE: Because they have not been legally
married in a marriage recognized by the state.
(CROSSTALK)
JESSOP: Right. And even though the father
is listed as the father on the birth certificate, it doesn‘t matter to the
state.
NORVILLE: Laurene, were you on welfare when you
were living there?
L. JESSOP: Yes. We were on food stamps.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: So how much would you say on a monthly
basis you were generating for your family based on your five children?
L. JESSOP: I don‘t know for sure, probably
about $50 per child. We were only on food stamps.
NORVILLE: Only on food stamps. But had you
applied for welfare, would you have been eligible?
L. JESSOP: I don‘t know.
NORVILLE: Are many families on welfare in the
community, as best you can remember?
L. JESSOP: I believe they probably are. But
we had to do that to survive with that many children. We had a lot of
little children.
NORVILLE: How many kids in your family as a
married woman were you all dealing with?
L. JESSOP: Eight. We had eight.
NORVILLE: Eight kids. So it was a small
family, by community standards.
L. JESSOP: And they were all very small. We
had six in diapers at once.
NORVILLE: Yes.
Mr. Chatwin, I‘m curious about one thing. You
took on the church. You won. You think you will gate life estate,
which you say would be a way to stay there for the rest of your life and your
wife‘s life as well. Why would you want to stay there if there is so
much acrimony between you and the higher-ups?
CHATWIN: Well, I really wouldn‘t except that
they are not going buy me out, I don‘t think. It will be a miracle if
they did.
NORVILLE: All right.
We‘re going to take a short break. We‘re
going to continue more with all three of our guests. Plus, we are going to
take a look at how the state is looking at this, specifically how some states
are trying to protect these child brides.
ANNOUNCER: Up next, polygamists and the law.
Their way of life is illegal in all 50 states, but it‘s more common than you
think. Why are so many polygamists being allowed to break the rules?
The answer may surprise you—when DEBORAH NORVILLE TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NORVILLE: A woman shares her story of escaping a
polygamist clan based in Arizona and Utah, but isn‘t polygamy outlawed in this
country? The Utah attorney general responds next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NORVILLE: As you know, polygamy is illegal in all
50 United States, but thousands still practice across the country, including the
state of Arizona, which outlaws polygamy in its constitution.
The constitution says—quote—“Polygamous or plural
marriages, or polygamous cohabitation are forever prohibited within the
state.”
Even so, Arizona turns a blind eye to multiple
marriages among consenting adults. But many of those entering polygamous
relationships are underage and they‘re getting married at times against their
will. Arizona says it has had enough of that. Earlier this month,
its governor signed legislation which makes it a felony if a married adult
marries a child.
Joining our discussion on polygamy in America now is
Arizona‘s House majority leader, Eddie Farnsworth. Also with us this
evening, attorney general of the state of Utah, Mark Shurtleff. Arizona
modeled its child bigamy laws after Utah‘s.
Mr. Farnsworth, let me start with you first.
I don‘t get it. If your constitution
specifically says polygamous cohabitation is illegal, why aren‘t you stopping
what‘s going on?
REP. EDDIE FARNSWORTH, ARIZONA HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER:
Well, it‘s an issue of enforcement. And the legislature has made
polygamy illegal for decades, literally decades.
But it‘s an issue of going up and dealing with a sect
of people who are up in Arizona, northern Arizona on the border of Utah, and
literally tearing those families apart. That something that was done back
in the mid-‘50. And there was a tremendous backlash when the voters in
Arizona and the citizens saw that they were pulling babies out of the arms of
their mothers.
So there has been some hands off because of that
backlash back in the ‘50s.
NORVILLE: Isn‘t that giving folks a carte
blanche to flout the law?
FARNSWORTH: Well, I don‘t there‘s a carte
blanche. And the legislature that sits now is determined to do some things
to give law enforcement some opportunity to enforce those laws that we‘re
passing to try to stop that kind of thing.
That‘s why we dealt with the child bigamy law, to try
to give the A.G. and the people who are dealing with law enforcement the
opportunity to go in, find the most egregious cases and deal with those and
obviously have the power and the authority by the legislature to do so.
NORVILLE: As we mentioned, that law was modeled
on a similar law in the state of Utah, which has also had to deal with the
polygamy situation.
Attorney General Shurtleff, why would you need to
legislate against child marriage if polygamist marriage in and itself is illegal
under your state‘s laws as well?
MARK SHURTLEFF, UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.
Bigamy in Utah, Deborah, for 100 years has been a third-degree felony in this
state. But there are as many as 20 or 30 some, maybe even more, thousands
practicing polygamists.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: Isn‘t there a difference between
bigamists and polygamists? A bigamist is a person who legally marries
another person when they are already legally married. These are people who
may do one legal marriage recognized by the state and then cohabitate in a
common law situation with multiple spouses.
SHURTLEFF: It‘s semantics. We call that
bigamy. It is against the law to either marry or cohabitate or purport to
marry more than one spouse in the state. That is against the law, 20,000
or 30,000 people. We just don‘t have the resources to go after all of
them.
And so, after the chief legal officer of the state of
Utah, I‘ve determined that my responsibility is to protect women and children
in these organizations who are being victimized. The problem is, is that
we have laws, current laws, unlawful sexual activity, for example, with a
16-year-old if the perpetrator is more than 10 years old. And we‘ve
convicted people of that practice within these organizations, including a police
a year ago.
But they have demonstrated their willingness to commit
third-degree felonies. And so I went to the legislature a year and said,
we have to up the ante on this. We need to make this a second-degree
felony punishable by one to 15 years in prison and make it very serious, that if
you marry, purport to marry, or cohabit with a minor, which is 17 and under in
the state, that‘s a second-degree felony.
NORVILLE: Right.
We all remember the Tom Green case. It got a lot
of publicity around the country. And he sentenced to prison for having
married underage and yet borne a child with that person. And yet it goes
on. Obviously, the publicity surrounding that one case didn‘t do much to
dent the practice elsewhere.
SHURTLEFF: Well, from that case, which my
investigators were involved in, that‘s when we learned and when I first found
out three years ago that hundreds of girls were being forced into marriage with
older men.
And so I determined that I was going to do everything I
could to protect those women and children. And they have had a pass, quite
frankly, Deborah, for 100 years. And I don‘t know why, but they have
gotten used to it. This isn‘t an attack on one similar group or one
religion, as they‘ve suggested. We enforce the laws and we protect women
and children throughout the state. But there have been victims for 100
years down there who have not been protected. And we are putting an end to
that.
NORVILLE: Representative Farnsworth, I know one
of the provisions of the legislation that recently passed in your state was the
creation of a 211 system; 411 goes directly to the police hot line, which is
often manned by people who are part of this particular sect that we‘re
speaking about.
The 211 system would bypass that and go directly to
someone who was more independent. Explain how that works.
FARNSWORTH: Well, I think the intent is to make
sure that there is an opportunity for girls that have been coerced into some
kind of polygamist relationship to be able to get out.
And when they get out, they need a place to go.
And the 211 system is intended to allow them to have an easy access to help that
they will need.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: How are they going to hear about it if
they are shut off from the rest of the world?
FARNSWORTH: Well, those are things that we‘re
hoping, as information gets out and as we identify those girls, we have people
who have left that polygamist sect that now are getting involved as activists.
And that process is going to have to grow.
So the hope is that, by putting that in place, we can
identify those girls. Through those activities, hopefully, we can expand
the resources that we have to notify them as they seek to get out of that
polygamist relationship. And we can give them an avenue, aside from the
law enforcement just going in and trying to identify who it is that‘s in a
polygamist relationship, which you know is very difficult. It‘s a very
closed community and a very closed society. And this gives them an ability
to contact the state.
NORVILLE: No one knows that better than Flora
Jessop.
Does this change in the law really accomplish anything?
F. JESSOP: As long as it‘s enforced.
But what I don‘t understand is why we must wait until
those children are forced into these marriages to help them. This is why I
get involved, because we don‘t need to wait until these children are victims
to help them.
NORVILLE: And you think that they wouldn‘t be
able to make the emergency phone call before the marriage?
F. JESSOP: I know they don‘t, they can‘t.
My sister is a very good example of that.
NORVILLE: Because she was married immediately
after finding out...
F. JESSOP: Fourteen years old, she was married to
her step-brother. She desperately, desperately tried to reach someone to
come and help her and could not get a hold of anybody.
NORVILLE: We‘re going to take a break at that
moment right there.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: You know what? I‘m going to let
you respond, but we‘re going to dash over to a commercial, but we‘re going
to come right back and we‘ll follow right up with you in just a moment.
More after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NORVILLE: Continuing our discussion about
polygamy in America.
Just before the break, Representative Farnsworth, I
know you wanted to respond to Ms. Jessop‘s comment that, if a girl is trying
to avoid a marriage, time is of the essence.
FARNSWORTH: Well, Deborah, I agree.
And what I wanted to make clear is that this
legislature is not suggesting in any way that we shouldn‘t be enforcing the
laws and protecting those children. In fact, that‘s what you see with
this bill, is, we‘re doing our very best to give the A.G. and the other law
enforcement agencies the opportunity to go in and deal with those problems.
Just like the attorney general from Utah said,
they‘ve been ignored for a long time. They‘ve become used to it.
They‘re violating all kinds of laws, including child bigamy, welfare fraud,
and a myriad of other things. And so we are trying to strengthen that.
I am one of a number of legislators in the Arizona House and Senate that signed
a letter requesting that the A.G. and that the governor start to enforce these
laws. And so it‘s very imperative that we do that.
NORVILLE: Well, are they?
FARNSWORTH: And we‘re trying to give them the
tools to do so.
SHURTLEFF: We are.
(CROSSTALK)
NORVILLE: Let‘s go over to Utah.
I know, Attorney General, you‘ve had a number of
people talk to you ever since these excommunications. And the allegations
are very, very serious, child abuse. We‘re hearing about kids being
beaten. As Ms. Jessop said, her own children were having pills
forced down their throat.
What‘s the state doing to try to help these kids?
SHURTLEFF: We‘re doing exactly what we‘re
doing. And that is investigating. And when we put together a case,
we‘re charging people with crimes.
NORVILLE: How do you put together a case, though,
when it‘s so hard to get in there?
SHURTLEFF: Well, what we‘re doing is, we‘re
trying to build some coalitions.
Not only are we working with people who have left
polygamy and those victims who have come out to talk to us and given us
evidence, but we‘re also working with some people who are still in polygamy
who abhor these practices, who know people, and who are willing to help us out.
So we‘re trying to bring everybody together.
In addition, we‘re trying to provide a safety net,
provide resources for those victims, so they feel they can come out and provide
testimony. In addition, our Child and Family Services rules are that if a
child believes that she‘s going to be forced to marry an older man, she does
not have to wait until that happens. She can contact us and she can get
Child and Family Services.
We‘re working to have local law enforcement there,
meaning county law enforcement, not the police in those communities, who are
also polygamists. And it‘s questionable whether they‘re following the
constitution or the prophet. And, in addition, we‘re always at trying to
get some signage up, some billboards that will notify of hot lines so that the
information can get to these victims.
NORVILLE: So you‘re suspicious abortion local
law enforcement there,
too
Ross Chatwin, you are still in the community. You
live there. You know what‘s going on. You know what people are
saying. Are they aware that outside law enforcement is looking more
closely at what‘s going on there?
CHATWIN: Yes, I am. I‘m very much aware.
And I think that they are quite frantically worried about it.
NORVILLE: And are they making changes?
CHATWIN: And I think that Warren knows that
he‘s basically a practicing pimp without a license.
NORVILLE: Whoa.
CHATWIN: And I think that he should be concerned.
NORVILLE: And how would a case against the
prophet be put together>?
You just made a very serious allegation there.
CHATWIN: I think it‘s quite true to...
(CROSSTALK)
CHATWIN: Go ahead.
SHURTLEFF: Deborah, I was just going to say that
we have an investigator who works full-time. We‘re working with other
agencies. We have a subcommittee put together, federal, state, and local
law enforcement officers.
We‘re working very hard to work with victims.
And when these men are being excommunicated now and when women come out, we do
interviewing them. Sometimes, with the women, our problem is, they have to
first get custody of their children or they‘re not going to want to be
witnesses. And that‘s a process that takes a year or so.
NORVILLE: And on that note, let me turn to you,
Laurene Jessop.
You have fought so hard to get your three daughters
back. And yet your two sons, ages 12 and 13, are not with you. And
you have been unsuccessful in getting them back.
L. JESSOP: Well, they are in my custody,
temporary custody. We just don‘t know how to go about getting them back
here, back with me.
NORVILLE: How to get them physically with you.
L. JESSOP: And also she can explain a little bit
about that, that what they‘re taught. I‘m not sure that they can fit
in here.
F. JESSOP: We don‘t know if it would be safe to
have the boys in the home with Laurene and the girls at this point because they
belong to this group called the Sons of Helaman or Helaman. Warren Jeffs
has started this group of basically a Hitler youth group.
NORVILLE: So the brainwashing goes on.
(CROSSTALK)
F. JESSOP: Yes. I would also like to say
that Utah has been very good at working with us. And Arizona has been
nothing.
NORVILLE: Well, I know Arizona is working on
that. They‘ve just passed one law in that direction. And we‘ve
heard what Representative Farnsworth has to say.
I want to thank you so much for being with us, Arizona
House Majority Leader Eddie Farnsworth, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.
Ross Chatwin, our thanks to you. And, Laurene Jessop and Flora Jessop,
thanks so much for being here. We appreciate it.
